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Shuten Dojo

Pokemon D/P/Pt Wifi Dojo.


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    My second Trick room...

    Malachi
    Malachi


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    Post by Malachi Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:20 am

    Azelf@ Leftovers Ability:Levitate
    Trick Room
    Explosion
    Nasty Plot
    Not sure yet, I might give it Trick and a scarf... not sure

    Slowking@ Leftovers Ability: Own Tempo
    Trick Room (big shock!)
    Ice Beam
    Psychic
    Nasty Plot
    EV's: 255 Sp. ATK / 255 Def or 255 Sp. Def depending on Slowking or Bro

    Camerupt@ Ability: Solid Rock
    Eruption
    Earthquake
    Rock Slide/Stone Edge
    Explosion
    EV's: Not sure yet.

    Steelix@ Ability: Rock Head
    Earthquake
    Iron Head
    Crunch
    Dragon Pulse/ Stealth Rock
    EV's: 255 Sp. Def / 255 Atk

    Spiritomb@
    Shadow Ball
    Hidden Power (Fighting)
    Hypnosis
    Nasty Plot
    EV's: 255 Sp. ATK

    Weezing@ Ability: Levitate
    Pain Split
    Thunderbolt
    Flamethrower
    Explosion
    EV's: 255 Sp. ATK


    This is my team... I am thinking of putting a Relicanth in there somewhere, not sure. I am just not sure about this team. Please give me feedback

    ~~ Changes made after some test runs on Shoddy


    Last edited by Malachi on Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Zenith
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    Post by Zenith Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:16 pm

    One thing that immediately hits me about this team is that every Pokemon is very slow. Yes, I realize it's a Trick Room team, but you really need at least one Pokemon that functions fine without it. Maybe Scizor or Metagross?

    Slowking/bro looks fine. Keep in mind that you don't need to put the max 255 EVs...that gives you 6 useless ones, which I'd slap onto HP. Also, instead of the defenses, maybe just put it into HP instead, or split it between the defense that you're using and HP.

    There is a reason that no one uses Power Trick on Shuckle: any priority move will kill it instantly, and if Trick Room wears off while you're theoretically sweeping you're pretty much screwed. Shuckle isn't really a great Trick Room Pokemon, which is funny because its base Speed is 5.

    Looks like you're going for a mixer set on Camerupt, so I'd go for 252 Atk/252 Sp.Atk/6 HP. You could also take some EVs out of the defenses and pour those into HP as well. I'm going to have to recommend Explosion over Heat Wave; not only because Explosion is incredibly useful, but also because you already have a special Fire move. I'd give him Leftovers; you could do Life Orb, but if you choose the orb I'd get rid of Eruption for Overheat.

    I have no idea why you would put Dragon Pulse on a Steelix; definitely choose Stealth Rock over it, but that's only if you're going to use it early-game...otherwise rocks aren't terribly helpful. I'd also recommend Explosion over Crunch. For an item, I'd go for Leftovers.

    Nasty Plot would be pretty handy on Spiritomb. So would Hypnosis, but I suppose you're just using it as a Trick Room sweeper. Shock Wave and Water Pulse seem to just be thrown in there...maybe try Hidden Power Fighting (if at all possible) or the moves I named. If you can get Hidden Power Fighting, than drop Dark Pulse; Ghost and Fighting hits everything in the game for at least neutral damage. Give him Leftovers too, and maybe put the rest of your EVs into HP or the defenses.

    I'd give your Weezing Haze. It could come in handy. Oher moves I'd try out are Explosion and Pain Split, which are both extremely useful. Maybe go with Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Explosion or Pain Split/Haze or Sludge Bomb. Oh and most of Weezing's EVs should go into HP and Defense...maybe the one Smogon recommends, 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpA.

    Oh, and give another Pokemon Trick Room.

    If you drop any Pokemon, I'd drop Shuckle, then if you drop a second drop Spiritomb.

    ...so yeah.
    Sasami
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    Post by Sasami Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:18 pm

    I'm not going to go crazy in depth here but I can definitely give some pointers.

    First off, I'm concerned about your lead. Most leads run Taunt and/or Explosion. A combination like that will not only prevent you from setting up Trick Room but could also cost you your Slowking. You need a lead that sets up Trick Room reliably. That might mean running something fast. I know that running something fast on a Trick Room team seems odd but bear with me :p. Gengar and Azelf can both set up Trick Room (and people won't expect it since those two are usually doing other things in the lead spot). Even better, after they set it up, they can explode. That'll take out a Pokemon (hopefully) and allow one of your Trick Room sweepers to come in for free. Another option is Scarf Jirachi (a personal favorite of mine). With the scarf, it'll outspeed basically any lead. Run something like Trick Room/Trick/Stealth Rock/Iron Head. If you feel like getting up Trick Room is your biggest priority, you can use that first. But what I'd do is actually first Trick off your scarf onto the defending lead. You'll hopefully lock them into something like Stealth Rock, giving you free turns. Now you can set up rocks and/or Trick Room. Iron Head is just there for attacking and flinching. The move is especially useful for Azelf and Aerodactyl leads who will try to Taunt you (preventing you from using Trick Room). Iron Head will 2HKO both of them and has a 60% chance of making them flinch (in other words, they'll have gotten KO'd without doing anything). The Jirachi set I gave you is completed owned by Magnezone but that shouldn't matter since the Jirachi will have done it's job by then. Oh, and I still think Slowking is fine on the team. Replace Shuckle, maybe (Power Trick Shuckle looks good on paper but rarely does anything in a real game and dies to any priority attack).

    By the way, don't freak out if you can't get Trick Room up right away. The biggest mistake I see made with Trick Room teams is that people are eager to set it up immediately. Not only does that give away your strategy (and team since people will know what to expect) but against an experienced player, you're never going to pull off a clean sweep that early in the game anyways. Trick Room is most important later in the game when your opponent's team is weakened, believe me.

    Since Slowking is no longer the lead and doesn't need Trick Room, that frees up a spot for Nasty Plot. That'll actually allow him to sweep. Power Gem and Psychic have poor type coverage, you need Surf on there. Slack Off is also good and gives you another chance to sweep if you fail. Nasty Plot/Surf/Ice Beam/Slack Off is good. It does leave you walled by water-types, though, so Grass Knot is an option over Ice Beam.

    Camerupt seems odd. I know you're going for a mixer, but having two special fire attacks and Iron Head (which has crappy type coverage and no STAB) is a little weird. Instead of Iron Head, try Stone Edge. And definitely have Explosion over Heat Wave since you seem to be leaning more towards physical attacks on him.

    As I read the rest of the team I can't help but wonder--who is sweeping, exactly? I mean, you have a bunch of slow Pokemon with good attacks...but their stats don't really reflect what you want them to do. Trick Room teams need to be able to hit hard and finish games fast. Pokemon like Steelix and Weezing can't accomplish that. Instead of rating the sets of the last few Pokemon, I'd like to instead recommend some stronger Pokemon. Look into Rampardos, Glaceon, Heatran, Ampharos, Rhyperior, Relicanth, Tyranitar, Ursaring, Machamp, Clamperl, etc. Some of those aren't insanely slow but they're slow enough for Trick Room, provided that you use a low speed IV and a speed-lowering nature.

    Also, I feel that Spiritomb isn't really much of a sweeper BUT I think he's nice on the team. Try for a bulky set with Trick Room--this way, you have two Trick Room users (at LEAST...a third would be nice).

    One last thing. Scizor would fit this team nicely if you find room for him. With a -speed nature he's slow enough for Trick Room and has the moves and stats to really sweep. Plus, he's bulky enough that he can function outside of Trick Room. Even better, he has access to one of the strongest priority attacks in the game--Bullet Punch. With STAB and the Technician boost, it's seriously powerful. Basically, using Scizor is insurance that if Trick Room goes down, you still have offensive power.

    Haha, looks like I did go a bit in depth. But whatever :p. I hope this helps!
    Malachi
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    Post by Malachi Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:44 pm

    I may extract Steelix from the team. He isn't doing much, except dying. I will try replacing him with Scizor on Shoddy and see if it'll work out. Thanks for all the criticism.

    My Spiritomb does amazing, I wouldn't drop it for anything! Hypnosis, Nasty Plot, Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball / Hidden Power and everything is dead.
    Shine
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    Post by Shine Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:01 pm

    Why is Azelf running Nasty Plot if its only attack is Explosion, which doesn't benefit from Nasty Plot in the least? In addition, you only have room for ONE more attack, which probably wouldn't warrant Nasty Plot. Try running Taunt instead of Nasty Plot, and maybe Psychic for the last move so Azelf doesn't become Taunt fodder.

    Like Sami said, the Pokemon it seems you've intended to use for Sweeping once Trick Room's up don't really seem up to the task. Weezing is much more of a physical wall, anyway.

    I'll also note that it doesn't seem like you've got much better plans for the rest of your EVs.

    Thanks to Nasty Plot, Spiritomb probably doesn't need MAX investment in Sp.Atk. You could probably do well to invest in some Def and HP, in fact. Calm Mind Spiritomb tends to be really nasty, especially with Rest. If the enemy doesn't have a REALLY strong physical sweeper, they're going down.

    On Camerupt- keep in mind just how common Stealth Rocks and Spikes are. Eruption probably isn't gonna get you much mileage, especially mid or late game, when all the entry hazards are up, and there isn't much Camerupt can SAFELY switch into.

    As for Sami's suggestions, I would definitely consider them. Rampardos, between EQ and Head Smash, would probably give you the best coverage physically. Tyranitar is good, but most of your team isn't going to benefit much from the Sandstorm. I wouldn't personally consider Clamperl much, because of how fragile it is, especially considering the short duration of Trick Room.

    Sorry, I'd give more, but Ryu and Sami already got in the most important stuff. XD
    Ninja
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    Post by Ninja Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:09 pm

    Sasami wrote:First off, I'm concerned about your lead. Most leads run Taunt and/or Explosion. A combination like that will not only prevent you from setting up Trick Room but could also cost you your Slowking. You need a lead that sets up Trick Room reliably. That might mean running something fast.

    It seems as though Sami has forgotten that Trick Room has the most negative priority out of any pokemon move. >>

    In my opinion, it's safer to have at least one Trick Room on something Bulky or on a Wall so that you can ensure its activation. The one I like best is actually my Lunatone who I believe is 252 S.Atk/252 S.Def/4 HP or something along those lines and is holding a Focus Sash, so it usually gets to put up Trick Room unless the opponent puts it to sleep/paralyzes it and/or has a priority move.

    That's why a lot of people like putting Trick Room on Dusknoir or Bronzong....

    Sami's way might have the element of surprise, but once Azelf/Gengar/etc. get Trick Room up, they're pretty much going to die if the foe isn't walled by them.

    Also, lulz Ryu, Fighting and Ghost, it's like BoltBeam, but it's not.
    Zenith
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    Post by Zenith Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:53 pm

    Fighting and Ghost is basically the superior BoltBeam. Even hits Shedinja and Lanturn.
    Sasami
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    Post by Sasami Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:09 pm

    Ninja wrote:
    It seems as though Sami has forgotten that Trick Room has the most negative priority out of any pokemon move. >>

    I've only built one Trick Room team. Ever. XD I'm just going by my experiences in fighting them. So yeah, I really don't know the details of the move >_>;;;.

    Btw, Azelf and Gengar are supposed to die after they set it up. Hopefully by exploding. You don't want your Trick Room lead just sitting out there chilling since it wastes turns. That was always my issue with Trick Room--the turn you use it counts as a turn of Trick Room. So that's four turns left. Then, even if you immediately switch out or explode, your sweeper gets three turns of Trick Room. If you spend any more time dawdling it's not even worth it. Great in Doubles, yes. Great in NU, yes. But Trick Room in OU just doesn't seem reliable to me =/.

    (Doesn't anyone need help with their Rain Dance or Stall team? Come on, people, those are my specialties!)

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